Christian Sundberg Past Lives, Awakening, Spirit Realm Ep. 207

How's it going? How are you?

I'm good. Nice to meet you.

Yeah, very nice to meet you too. I'm so fascinated with your story and your experiences. There's just so much in hearing your story that I'm like, "Yes," because I've been fortunate enough, and I call it fortunate, to have sort of out-of-body experiences, whether it's been just sitting on a beach and having some transcendental experience or whether it's been through medicine, plant medicine. There's just like this whole other realm, and the things that you say are right on, right in line with the experiences I have. I think one of them that I feel like so many of us can relate to, because we can use the word "dream" instead, is that when we're in a dream or in these experiences or having this pre-birth experience that you did, in this out-of-this-world stuff, is that there's no words for it. That is like, right? There's just no way.

It's like you wake up from a dream, and you go, "Okay, this isn't going to make a lot of sense." How do I even put this? The feeling doesn't always translate. You can't even translate it. So I just thought that I think that feels like some of the most resonant sort of connection to your story that we can all draw upon, that there's just no words to absolutely explain these experiences.

Yeah, there's definitely no language. Language is local to our world and our assumptions. It's like forms, symbols, and our true nature just so fully transcends that set of forms in this context. So there's just no way to put language on it. I feel like every time we even open our mouths and try, it's like we're just wrong right away because it just can't be spoken to.

Yeah, this is a weird, out-there question right off the bat, but do you think that we're supposed to get to a place where we don't really use words? I know this may sound strange.

It's all right. It's probably going to be a little bit. I'm a pretty normal, mainstream American guy, but I have had these experiences, and I'm passionate about speaking to these higher contexts as very real because they are. This is not a religious belief or mythology or something. I mean, when you have these experiences, they're even more real than this experience. In those contexts, many of those higher systems are thought-responsive. They respond to your thinking and your intention.

In those systems, when we interact with each other, the interaction is very thorough, very complete. We use the word "telepathy." It's just an exchange of feelings and ideas, and it's a very full and complete exchange. That's the natural way that we communicate, whereas here on Earth, we have to put words in a string and throw them around.

So I think we are moving in that direction, as you said. I think as we continue to awaken and evolve, that is the natural direction we're moving towards. This is a pretty dense reality system now. Our veil is pretty thick here in general, so it might take some time, but that is very natural for all of us to have that telepathic interaction.

To elaborate more on it, it's a space where it also feels like you come into a knowing. It's not even like there's time. It's not normal communication like on Earth, as you say, with this whole one word after another. It's like a river of information, and you know it was told to you, but you didn't get it told in the normal linear fashion that you do here. You kind of become aware, and it feels like it's so fast, and there's so many levels of information translated.

It's like the embodiment of it, which is, I think, when you say that they're almost more real, for me, it feels like it's so real because it becomes embodied. Meaning, I don't have to reach for the thought. I never forget, and I completely don't even need to believe it because I just know it's true. Exactly. It applies like I have to effort for it, but it's just there. It's complete, and it's at a level of being that transcends the level where we're here, and we have to think about things and deliberate and decide what is true, how does it apply to me.

What you describe is excellent. It's that knowingness in our being that is so complete. I like that you use the word "embodied" because we really do feel it and know it in the wholeness of our being in a very tangible way. It's not something that is so personal. It's like the most personal, real, and complete. I don't know how to describe it, so I think that was well said.

Well, it's only because I've been listening, obviously, in the last few days to just so many more recollections of your experience that it's so fresh. That feeling is the thing, right? So it's kind of that's the embodiment. They say that with manifestation, you have to put your body and mentally go there so that your body then gets the experience of having whatever it is that you want. So you actually become it. You realize it fully and fully embody it, and then you can let it go and let the universe take care of it in a way.

Feeling is an okay word, but it's even deeper. It's like a vibration of the being. It's a state of being, a fullness of being. So we do experience that in a very deep way, and then the universe is listening to that vibration. So the response back to us is in accordance with the vibration. That's why, when people talk about manifestation, we tend to talk a lot about thoughts or specific things we're focused on, but really, it's that vibration of being that is communicative and automatically evokes a response. Consciousness is connected to that which is, and when it vibrates, when it intends, when it is a certain way, reality responds naturally. That's just how it works.

What is the true nature of our being, then, according to your experiences?

Well, it cannot be described, as we said. We have to turn to metaphors a lot of the time, but we could say that the true nature of our being is unlimited joy and freedom and aliveness, life itself with a capital L. Consciousness or spirit, those are two other words. It has so much in it. It's so deep and full of life and joy and love that there's no word that we can put on it to describe it.

We could say it's the water of the ocean. If all that is is the ocean, then the substance of spirit that we are is the water of the ocean, and each of us is like a drop of the ocean. That stuff of the ocean can't be described. It's just so beyond language. But the thing is, we know we're the ocean. The ocean doesn't know it's the ocean. Right? Like, we can have awareness that we are aware. We have thoughts. We are aware we're more than this body. We have an awareness to it. We're not the ocean not knowing it's the ocean. There is a level of self-awareness all throughout the levels.

So it's very difficult to try to speak to the level of the knowing of one's being at a given level. I'm not sure if you're talking about it from this point of view of the human personality trying to look up and therefore we have some kind of cognizance, like intellectual cognizance. But at the higher levels, even at the deepest level, the knowing of beingness itself transcends all thought. It doesn't need a definition. It doesn't need to be quantified in some way like we do here. In fact, it transcends all that quantification and gives rise to it. It's deeper than the quantification, but it's very real and self-aware.

I'd love for you to elaborate more on that. I'm starting to get a feel for it, but I need you to keep going.

So at those deeper levels, they transcend form, and thought is a type of form. When I say form, I mean like objects, distinctions of some kind. This is blue and not green. This is up and not down. I feel well and not unwell. Whatever my thoughts are, thoughts are like little forms in the mind that we fall asleep into. "I am hungry." You have that thought. Now I want to eat a sandwich. I gotta find a sandwich or I want to grab the chips or whatever. The moment that you have that thought, you have fallen asleep into being that thought. Now you are the being who wants chips. That's all that's what you are.

So then, when you think about whether even the thought of whether or not source is self-aware, that's a thought too that you're having from the human personality's perspective, and it's valuable. But I'm saying that at the deepest levels, when you go all the way past all the form, that's not empty. It's full. It's full of beingness that transcends all form. I don't have words to use. It knows itself very fully and completely, but in a way that is much bigger than one specific definition. In fact, it gives rise to the opportunity for all the definitions that we're experiencing here.

We're like looking back from the human perspective and saying, "Oh, I understand reality from the form perspective. I understand linear time and discrete location, and I understand ideas and philosophy." Then we write thousands of books about philosophy and try to understand, and then we spend hours talking about all the different forms. That's good. That's fine. In fact, that's helping the all to know itself from their perspective. But I'm just saying that deeper perspective fully transcends all those distinctions that we could possibly throw on it.

Have you been drawn to plant medicine experiences to bring you into those spaces again, to get access?

I personally haven't. I'm interested in trying to navigate the human limitations in a simple, lucid way if I can, without some kind of physical influence. In fact, I've tried binaural beats. I don't even like binaural beats, two different pitches, one on each ear. I don't prefer that.

Do you feel, are you highly sensitive?

Oh, yes. I'm so sensitive to everything. That can usually be a total reason why somebody, I have friends that are highly sensitive, and they're not drawn at all because it's almost already sensory overload. Then the idea of invoking even more is just totally not a good idea.

Yeah, I'm not looking for a new sense experience. I'm looking for what we're speaking to transcends even the sensory. It's a deeper state of being. But yeah, I understand what you're saying, and I'm definitely so sensitive that I'm very careful about all that stuff.

How has that affected you and your life, being so sensitive? Because that can be an overwhelming feeling.

It's a daily challenge for me. I actually remember in my pre-birth experience knowing that if I, because I asked to have a small amount of memory this time and not forget everything completely, and I knew that that would necessitate sensitivity and that that would make the life potentially even more challenging. But I knew that even that level of contrast was an opportunity for growth. It was an opportunity.

But now that I'm here, I have sensitivities that just nobody else has that I do every day, like sensitivities to different kinds of light. For instance, I have not been able to find a computer monitor in the last 10 years that I can tolerate. I'm using an old monitor. Sensitivity to foods and sounds, but I can also feel non-physical information. I know this sounds wild, but I can sense non-physical information.

I think that goes hand in hand. Like, if I'm walking by someone, I might suddenly get a knowing, like we were describing, in my being, in my body, about who they are, who they really are, and maybe what their personality is within them and what they're experiencing. I feel like that goes hand in hand with the story and beyond the story. It's like who they think they are and who I tend to sense a bit of the true nature, who somebody is beneath the character because that's who we really are.

I love that. I relate to that on some level for sure. The challenge in that is trusting the information and whether or not you're just a good storyteller. Do you ever find that it's hard to trust either one or getting used to trusting it because, at first, you think, "I'm just really good at telling stories"?

Yeah, personally, I feel there's a distinct difference because it's not an earthly-like type of thought or story. It's a type of vibration that's very multi-textured, not something I can easily put a story on. In fact, sometimes when I sense it and I try to share it, I can't. There's no words. How do you describe like an ocean of color or something? Not that I perceive it visually typically, but I'm just saying it's beyond that language.

But I'm also discerning. I'm not real big on quick jumping to, you know, I sense that. I'm very open-minded but also skeptical, and I try to always have that healthy level of discernment. But it's not something I go out and seek. It's just like almost like a sense that is just so normal for me now. It's almost stronger than my other senses sometimes.

Give yourself a really normal, average guy, and I do have a normal job too.

Yeah, I do. I'm a project manager.

How does that work? Or how do you use it? Hang on, that's actually not even fair. Why aren't you just some very good psychic out there that can help people figure out where they're going? There are so many jobs that would tap directly into that awareness. How do you use it then because it's totally possible to take our special skills and inject them into regular life?

Yeah, that's a really good question. I navigate regular life every day in a way that I try to be the most genuine and authentic I can and utilize that experience because it is spiritual too. There's not like a difference. This entire manifestation around us, as dense as it is, as limiting as it is, is rich with opportunity every day. That's true even if interactions might be with someone who's not fully aware of the higher nature of who we are. That's the norm here. We're veiled as we walk around.

As for not applying it in a professional sense, I have not personally felt super called to do that. I have felt called to share messages like this and the writing of my book. I felt deeply called to do that, to provide that presence, and then step away and let life happen as it will.

Your book is called A Walk in the Physical. Did I hear you say it was free?

Yeah, I have a copy on my website that can be read online for free.

Wow. It's not about the money. It's more important, I feel, just to share the message. It is available on Amazon or on Audible. I'm really touched by the number of people who've reached out about the book. It's funny; when I was writing, I actually don't even feel like I wrote it all the way.

I feel like chunks came to me over six years, one bit at a time. When I made it available, I almost felt like it wasn't mine. It was something that needed to be in the world, and that was it. Now I feel like I could even just walk away, and it would be fine. So I'm excited about it, but I also don't feel like, "Oh, it's my book." That's not really how it is.

There's almost like a feeling like there's some kind of imposter syndrome to try and take credit for something you feel like you didn't have to effort for because there's this seeming rule in life that unless you effort for something, you didn't really earn it.

What you're describing is the true nature of everyone though. You're just aware you're doing it.

Amen. That's something that can't be quantified or monetized. When we speak to unconditional love, the true nature of spirit, the true nature of what we are, and the nature of source is unconditional love, fully giving, fully open. How can anybody put a price tag on that?

The most beautiful message that I got from my most deepest, soberest experience was that there's no need for forgiveness because there was never a judgment in the first place. That's how pure the love is, how true and all-encompassing and deep. It's literally everything. It's just like you're totally loved, and there's no need for forgiveness because there was never even a judgment.

Absolutely. Totally unconditional love. It's like we're already goodness. We're already innocent. We just fell asleep into the dream of form and into the fear. So when we fall into the dream of form, we have fear because we haven't yet fully integrated this. When we have fear, we have ego rise up, and the ego is just an attempt to fix this huge fear problem that rose up. Now we're all running around like a bunch of kindergarteners trying to make ourselves feel better.

"I'm better now because I'm a part of this group, or I can have this object, or I can have this power." Whatever all the millions of manifestations of ego, but at the heart, our nature is already complete love and joy and freedom and innocence. We are good at our very core. That is true of all people.

I actually really totally believe that too, even the ones that do bad things. You don't know what kind of experience they had when they were young or what's been passed on from the family generation through cellular memory or ancestral memory. You don't know what they thought they had to do to survive.

Oh, yeah. There's so much conditioning, and not just in one human life too. We're talking about a context that's even much bigger. From the spiritual perspective, from the higher perspective, there's complete understanding. There's complete vision. It's like, "Oh, I see exactly why you experienced the way you did. Oh, wow, you actually really were brave." You see the amazing qualities of the other, and there's just so much profound love that rises up for the other.

I'm reminded of an experience I had years ago. This is early in my awakening process, and I had an out-of-body experience where I saw and felt the soul of my wife's ex-boyfriend. At the time, I wasn't a fan of this. This is early in my awakening, so I had silly ego things going on there. But I felt about his nature, the oh my goodness, the way that his spirit and my wife's overlapped and how they shared this beautiful creative power and how his being and my being overlapped, and we shared this love of honor, this deep, ancient love of honor.

I could feel how in his life, he had been squashed by lack of love. He had been born into a family where he was not loved by his parents, and it felt like a car tire that rolled over a plate and flattened it super thin. From that thinness, he's trying to live and create. I was like, "Oh my gosh, I have so much honor. I just respect and love this man so much." Now, when I see him, we're close, and when he comes over, every time I see him, I feel like kneeling to the guy because I'm like, "I cannot believe so much he's doing with so little. I can't believe what you're doing here on Earth. This is amazing. I just want to honor his journey." That's how it is from spirit for all of us. We're seeing the rigor that we've had to operate in and through.

Talk about the in-between first, and then I want to work into reincarnation, the choices, and all that. What is that in-between life like, not life? What is the in-between a human life like? Is that essentially what you were seeing in that pre-birth experience, the in-between?

Yeah, so this context is very vast. We like to narrow it down to simple. There's like Earth level, and then there's like in-between level. Tell me about that level because here on Earth, that's kind of how we think of places. Even on Earth, think of how many places there are, and we're in a very limiting system. So I'm just saying that as a context because the scope of being and the scope of activity that is available to the soul when not limited to an incarnation is unspeakably vast. But I can at least say, from my experience, I remember having experiences in different layers that led up to the choice to incarnate and to be Christian.

I remember being in a realm of golden light. I remember this being coming to me and asking me if I wanted to go back yet, if I was ready yet, and then reviewing this life. I had a previous incarnation attempt first that did not work out because I rejected it out of fear. Anyway, that whole process takes place in a similar level, and there are many different places in it, but they're traversed by thought alone and intention. So you just intend or want to be somewhere, and you're there. There's so many different aspects of that I can't possibly put language on it.

I can say the closest to when I actually incarnated, again, this transcends linear time too, so that's really hard to speak to, but at the point that was closest to incarnation, I was in a place that appeared to be, as an example, we like environment, so I can at least describe one environment. I was in this room that looked like a technician's chamber, and it was over the Earth, and there was like a shaft leading down to the Earth, and there were these beings there that are like veil application technicians, something like that.

That place was very close vibrationally to Earth but still pre-incarnation, so I still had all my knowing. I could see the Earth, but I wasn't in that layer. I was not that vibrational density. The incarnation process is like a plummet of vibration down, down, down, down to resonate into this comparatively very, very dense experience.

In a way, you don't really actually go anywhere. Exactly. Everything and everywhere, you don't go anywhere. You just lower your frequency down so much to experience this super dense, linear, time-consuming, fear-based reality.

Exactly. You're like, "Wow, that's the freaking dark night of the soul itself." That's it. It's the most dense, most opportunity-offering, limiting. See, those are synonymous—opportunity-offering and limiting are synonymous. Opportunity is handed to us, and we don't actually ever leave. It's like the experience plays upon the movie screen of our awareness, and we seem to be locked into it. Of course, that's the very nature of being veiled. It seems like this is all there is. That's the name of the game, but our consciousness is actually still there.

You could say that a subset of the self is like committed into the physical experience, but the whole self is always outside of it. It's like you could say metaphorically it's like falling asleep in heaven to have the dream of Earth. When you wake up in the morning, you know you never left your bed. Similarly, when you wake up after physical death, you know you never left. You never were in any real danger.

I get very tripped out on how the universe works and the fractal nature of it and how there's just it's hard to put into words. I can kind of feel this sort of looping almost, and it's like a black hole almost. It sucks it in, and then new galaxies are born, and it feels like there's almost an aspect within us that does that. Because there's no other, I'm trying to rationalize, and maybe we're just not even capable of it as human beings, so maybe it's not within our sort of data computing capabilities.

But things like quantum entanglement and things like, I just, it can't. We can't imagine that with our linear life that we live here that something on opposite ends of the universe can communicate instantaneously. That's because the universe is virtual. It's all being simulated at once, so the communication is outside of the universe because that which is generating the universe is already connected to itself. It doesn't need distance. Distance is an illusion. You can think of it that way. Just like we believe in distance a lot, but distance is just a visual experience, a sensory experience, an idea. It's all these forms. It's an illusion.

But anyway, I like what you said about the fractal nature of reality because it very much is like that. As above, so below, as it's said. The quality of the spirit is such that we do have fractals of being. You have the source that has individuated into drops. You have each drop, each soul that is individuated into different personalities that appear from a given personality's perspective as separate, but they're not separate. They're one. You are all your characters that you've played. They're the same you. Anyway, so it is like that. It's like a huge fractal system within consciousness.

I just interviewed a guy named Chervin. He has a cool company called Symbiotica, and he's very spiritual and has been sort of walking in this world since he was like 10. We were talking about the evil forces that would be controlling the planet. Is there an Illuminati or a cabal, or is there a deep state? He described it in a way that was like, it's not that there's a group, and we kind of deduced it down to the fact that it's actually just a macro of the micro, which is that it's an aspect within us, like this sort of greed or materialism. It's on the micro version; it's an aspect within us, and that the real solution is not necessarily to point the finger and be a victim. It's to fix it within yourself because when we all do that, it's all fixed.

Absolutely. The simplest way I feel to put that is that it's all fear. Fear that we've rejected something, we're not okay with something, and so we grab for control. That's what the ego does, and that happens in many different layers. It happens in groups; it happens in individuals. But the thing is that that external environment is not the active playing field for real change. I mean, it will fix itself if the real environment is addressed, and that is consciousness itself. So the simplest way to put that is face your own fear, own your own crap in your life, and find the joy and the love that you already are that got buried underneath all these other things.

Maybe even got buried at the moment you incarnated. Now you're physical; you don't like being separate from everybody else. That's okay. Find the real you in there. Face the fear, process it, allow it. That actually helps the entire collective to heal because we're all connected. We're a part of one pond, one soup, and when one of us does that and really finds the love and processes the fear, it's like a light that goes off for everybody else in the pond, and it raises the temperature of the water for the whole pond. So we're not powerless.

We tend to look external all the time. "Oh, look at the political parties. Look at the laws. Look at the face your own fear and know that there's nothing to fear and that you are love and you are joy." If you find that in your life, you will change the world. That vibration will affect the whole world rather than being lost in this idea of hopelessness that we can't affect the world. That's not true.

There's a thought that there's like the three waves of volunteers that someone like Dolores Cannon has made popular—crystal children, indigo children, star seeds—that these are all waves of entities that come and incarnate as humans to help the planet. Is that true?

Yeah, I believe it is true. I didn't have specific experience with the three waves of volunteers in my pre-birth experience, but I did know from the previous standpoint it was just seen as obvious that the Earth is going through an awakening process, and that's very exciting. It's like the act of the play is the awakening act. So there is a calling for those who are able to contribute to come and participate because if we have higher vibrational nature.

I don't mean that in a duality sense because I'm not trying to compare anybody to anybody else, but if we have experience in higher systems and we're loving and involved and we come into the human experience, even if we don't remember, which we don't typically, and even if we don't know exactly what we're doing, our mere presence affects the pond because now we're a part of it, and our vibration is automatically affecting the vibration of the whole pond. So a lot of the younger people today are very loving and wise beings, and they've come into this world, and we'll see what happens. It's exciting.

What did they, what to do? So the Earth is going through an awakening process, which just means we are processing our old fear crap and moving vibrationally closer to what we really are, which is love and acceptance and freedom and joy. There is a huge vibrational distance though because the human collective consciousness has a long history with all sorts of nastiness, all sorts of fear-based ego patterns. But those ego patterns are being faced and processed by many individuals, and so we might see on the surface there's a lot of conflict at times. Well, that crap has to come up and be seen in order to be processed and faced and felt and healed.

So that healing that happens is something that changes the collective consciousness. It sets a new momentum, a new direction, which continually raises the temperature of the water. That's just the metaphor for raising the vibration of the human consciousness that is happening. It is in the process now. I'm energetically sensitive, like I mentioned, so I feel like when I go into larger groups, I can feel the difference now compared to even 10 years ago. There's still quite a notable difference, and we might look on the surface and say, "Oh man, everything is a mess." Well, there's a lot of fear in there, but this is happening. We are awakening, and love is growing.

I agree with you. As much as it's scary and nasty out there, the conversation we're having and a lot of the other conversations I have on the show, even with my friends, are not conversations that you could have with almost everybody. That's probably why it wasn't all that long ago that you came forward with your story, right?

Yeah, that's right. My body is 43 right now. I was about 38, I believe, when I came out with my story, but my pre-birth memory returned at the age of 30. So there was about eight years that I didn't share. I didn't feel like it was appropriate. I didn't want to take that professional risk, but then I just had the sense like, "Okay, the ground is fertile enough now. The soil is just fertile enough," and so I shared, and I'm very glad that I did.

The island is just big and big and so long. Even when I started getting very interested and deep into spirituality and curiosities of that in all aspects of it, I just was thought of as weird. I remember being called weird, and it was like I felt like I was on an island. Oh, yeah. You feel like you're on an island. So your island got bigger.

Oh, my. Well, there's, I can say with certainty, there are thousands of people out there, millions even, who feel like that. They sense, even if they don't know what it is, that there's more going on than what they see on the surface, and a lot of people have experiences and just don't have anybody to share them with. I feel like that's one of the greatest blessings since I've shared is I've been able to meet so many amazing people. There are a lot out there.

Did you come into awareness that there was ever a point in time on this planet where we were like the Golden Age? Was there ever a point in time where it was love, it was coherence, there was peace, there was a higher vibrational operating level, or has this been a sort of gradual increase since the inception of the planet 4.3 billion years ago or whatever it was?

I don't know. I would guess the second one, but I don't know because you said you aborted the previous life to this one because fear took over and was too much. So do we choose the life that we have? Oh, yes. Do we choose our parents? Do we choose our friends? Do we incarnate with a soul family to make it easier? Like, how is it that we come into the experience that we're having in this life?

Yeah, so we absolutely choose to come. I know that's strange when so many people feel that their lives are difficult, and they're suffering, and so many people say, "I would never sign up for this." We have really big balls when we're on the other side. We're like, "I got this." I think that about myself as I say that to myself regularly. I'm like, "Danica, seriously, what did you sign up for? What did you think that you had the balls for?" Okay, so it's so funny because what you just described, I actually remember doing. So I remember seeing the vibrational distance and going, "Holy crap, that is further than I've ever done.

Can it even be done?" Because it was so, in my case, it was one very specific vibration, one fear that I came to process and heal, and it was so vibrationally low that I was like, "How is it even possible?" And I was told, "Yes, it is," and I just knew like if it could be done, then I will do it because I knew what we are. We are unlimited, immortal beings who can't fail. We can't actually fail, but we can get underneath the weight bench and put 150 or 200 or 500 pounds on there and give it a shot. And then once we get underneath the weight, the thing about this weight bench is once you're strapped into the roller coaster, you can't get off.

That's the name of the game. We want to be committed into a context that we can't easily escape. That way, we have to be forced to face ourselves, to face our limitations, to face our fears, to overcome them, to see if we can really be there for each other in compassion and love and kindness even when it's hard.

So anyway, we do see that context pre-life, and everybody has a different intentionality behind their incarnation. It's very specific to the soul and their qualities and what they're interested in and specific to the life and the context. There's a huge variety there, so I can't speak to everybody, but I can at least say that yes, we do review the context, and it is a necessity that it be a choice, voluntary, because the soul, the spirit, is sovereign. It's a part of source. There's no greater authority. Nothing can lock it away. Nothing can limit it unless it limits itself unless it surrenders itself into a limitation by itself within itself, which is what we do.

So my memory then of I saw, I remember surrendering to the veil and that process of giving over my knowing and giving over my power and surrendering and even that prompting that initial fear because that's a huge loss of control. Why the hell do we do it? Is it exciting?

Do we look at this small fraction of time that we experience and go back to our more of our true nature, and it was a great experience no matter what it was like? It was like, "Wow, that was a thriller." It's like going into a movie that you got really scared in, but you came out, and you're like, "Oh my God, that was crazy." Was it? Okay, that's not a bad metaphor. Or is it because there is truly something happening that has a ripple effect into the universe, and we're helping with it? Like, is there a bigger purpose other than just like, "That was fun"?

Yeah, both. The latter is that we are participating in the expansion of love and joy through evolution. We're evolving. That's just a simple word, a simple English word, but I'm speaking about the evolution of spirit, that is the refinement of spirit. Now, at the same time, it's already perfect.

So I know this sounds like a paradox from duality's point of view, but when applied into the imperfect into duality, we are imperfect at a given point. We're only so good at manifesting, and manifesting is maybe the wrong word. We're only so good at actualizing our true loving nature in a given context at a given point in time, and we seek to push the boundaries and see how much more can we do and how much more can we know, like actually feel and experience.

Contrast is like a gift because it gives you the opportunity to experience the low so that you can also know the high. At the same time, it's maybe like if you take a balloon and you blow up the balloon and make it really big and then you lock it in place, you tie it. Now it's stuck with all this air in it. It's a little bit like what we've done here. We've come vibrationally down, down, down, down, down. We've been locked into a position. Now, in this position, can you make the loving choice? In this position, can you feel a certain emotion? How do you respond to it in this position? Can you find who you really are? Can you love the person next to you? Can you know joy here?

Can you overcome fear? How do you respond to pain or loss in this position? And then when you take the position back away, now see all that work that you did out here is magnified by that distance. You did the work at that depth of your being. It's like a depth of being that is, I don't want to use the word "carved out" because that sounds pretty gruesome, but a depth of being that is refined and deepened. And then when you take that depth of being into other thought-responsive reality systems, it has an impact immediately.

I was inspired to incarnate because I could see and feel from a being who had incarnated. Oh my gosh, he was full of so much power and joy. He was able to feel joy that I couldn't even understand. I picture it almost like a food pyramid and how, in a food pyramid, if you are the very top stop, it's like if you come down to Earth to this big base level, but you actually shift and change the big base level, it affects everything. Yes, there's no, it's like foundational. It's essentially your foundational awareness, foundational frequency. It enriches the rest. Yes, it enriches the whole.

The foundational level is actually where we start, but yes, it is like going down, down, down, and then it's like if you put on a 20-pound coat or a 50-pound coat or a 100-pound coat, you get to pick which one you want, and then you go for a run. And then you come back, and you take the coat off, and you're like, "Oh my gosh, that was heavy," but now you're stronger in a way that you now may have been enabled to do something or know something or even feel something that someone else who hasn't worn that coat hasn't felt.

So there's this allure, you could say, of vibrational distance. The deeper the vibrational distance, the more the opportunity. So that's why a lot of souls are like, "Oh man, sign me up. Put me in for the hard class. Give me the hard stuff." And then there's usually the guides who are like, "Okay, I think you're biting off a little too much this time. Let's rein that back in a little bit," and you're like, "Oh, but I want to do it all at once. I want to just chill out a little bit and try to find an evening."

I'm glad you mentioned guides because that was what I wanted to ask next about—guides, angels, ascended masters, ancient goddesses, like ancient Egyptian or Greek. What do you know about that because that all just seems like such a mystery land of like, were they real, were they not, were they just stories to help with understanding and coping, were they extraterrestrials? What role do guides and angels and ascended masters play?

Yeah, we can just say this: consciousness. We are consciousness. Your consciousness, my consciousness, so is every other being. Consciousness has a huge variety of experiential opportunity given to it. We don't have to be physically incarnated. That's just one thing. Not everybody goes to college or not everybody goes to Cedar Point and rides a roller coaster. That's something you can choose to do if you want, but not everybody does that.

So I'm just saying there's a huge variety of individuals, whether they're physically incarnated or not. Individuals tend to grow through experience or evolve in certain qualities, and so then beings who are very adept at certain qualities tend to be able to help others with those qualities, and we call those guides. Guides could be beings who have been physically incarnated or beings who have not, but they might be really good at a certain vibration. We also tend to have personal guides, a being that knows us really well and tends to kind of follow us and track us throughout the process.

I've heard that we all have like one main guide, one or a few.

Yeah, or a few, like three or four or something, but I know it's really well. So there's a huge variety to what that might mean. Some beings are incredibly evolved and powerful, so I mean, it's hard to get into too many specifics, but I'm trying to give a broad comment because there's such a breadth to what a guide could be or who a guide might be.

It could be a living person that we knew physically who passed on, and they have a relationship with us, and they love us, and because they love us, they come back, and they just kind of watch over, and they know from that side, "Oh wow, that was a cool video game," and then from that point of view, they can maybe help or guide or nudge, and then when we exit the game, they're there for us. So that's just another possibility.

Ascended masters, we might put in that category too. Those are beings who have had a lot of incarnational experiences and have basically mastered the course, the college, the physical universe experience. Jesus, Krishna, Buddha, right? Those kinds, right? Yeah, I mean, I'm not going to label any given person with any given title, but yes, that's right. Beings who have mastered the course and no longer respond in fear.

What does that mean, mastering? It has to do with fully integrating the breadth of experience that is possible here such that they are able to bring love into all contexts, even say being hung on a cross as an example. So you say the names don't matter, but if these ascended masters are to help us and they are helpful, they are able to attune to a certain frequency that they're most helpful with.

Yeah, I didn't mean to say the names don't matter. I just meant I didn't want to draw a distinction between, "Oh, this person isn't an ascended master, and that one isn't." I'm not going to do that, but the names are to be able to access that frequency, tune into it, so it's helpful to still address them. Right? It's still, if you want to say, "Jesus, I need your help with this," like, what does that do?

Yeah, it's like a Google search, except in spirit, the Google search engine's way better, way faster, and always listening. And it's your intention that is really entering the search engine, and the name or the form is just the way the system can interpret that very successfully. So like, you don't even need to call a person by their name in your mind. Of course, if you have a loved one that passed, you don't need to say, "Okay, loved one, name so and so." If you just intend and have that love in your heart and reach out with your mind and with your intention, it's intention that is the movement of consciousness that is automatically having an effect. Same thing with calling out to an ascended master, for instance.

Is it easy for you to have this kind of intentional dialogue with any entity or energy that you want?

No, I'm quite veiled. I'm very much veiled, and I'm thankful that I am, but I do feel that I have a constant interaction with spirit and God, you could say. I'm not super careful in my own mind about different distinctive names because once you sense the oneness of being that we are, all the form definitions and walls are so much less relevant. They're just much less relevant. I'm not saying they're not important, but they're less relevant.

If you were to call out whatever you feel like your greatest skill or spiritual skill is, what is it?

Oh, boy. I am deeply, at a soul level, interested in understanding dimensional cross-dimensional expression and how do I describe this? It's really hard to describe these things—cross-dimensional knowing and like a system context mastery and then being able to hopefully quantify it in a concise way. I love that, and I feel like my book, A Walk in the Physical, for instance, is my attempt, as a physical human, to try to bring down that very vast and succinct digestible language. That's something that my soul loves to do. I don't, I will say a skill or whatever, we all do have things we're strong at. I feel like that cross-dimensional proficiency might say is something that is a great joy to me.

How has that helped you in your life?

That's what we are. I mean, when you know what we really are, we are joy. So the question is a little bit like saying, "How does joy help you in your life?" Joy is not about unnecessarily even a physical outcome. It's just when you know joy, it's wonderful because that's what we are, and when we can feel joy and know that joy here, wow, because here, like I said, we're locked all the way out in this position. If we can find who we are here and express it and share it with each other and love each other and really authentically meet each other, even in a simple way, like a small way, oh my gosh, it's so powerful. I take joy in that if possible.

I mean, I'm still very much veiled. I have my own personal great limitations. I have fear still, of course. I have challenges like every other human, of course, but the question is what do we do with the challenges and how do we allow that true nature to meet the challenges? Honestly, authentically, really honest with ourselves. Where am I weak? What fear have I locked away that I don't want to feel today? What feeling have I not wanted to feel today? What self-belief or whatever the thing is that's triggering, anytime we feel anything negative, what is the illusion that I have bought into?

I love the idea that if anything feels uncomfortable or feels bad, it's because whatever that thing is is out of resonance with your true self. That's right. Your true self is never that. So if you don't feel good, it's because you're out of resonance. Something is putting you in a position where you have to do something or say something or be someone, and it's not who you are. You've bought into a self-perception that is not in alignment with the truth of who you are. So, for instance, deep down, if on the surface it might be, "This person flicked me off on the interstate, and now I'm mad," but deep underneath all the layers of ego, what really might be going on is, "I feel powerless, and I'm upset that I feel powerless."

Whatever it is, whatever that negative self-perception at the root is that you think reality is proving to you, that negative self-perception of feeling either powerless or unworthy of love or not having freedom, those are not in alignment with the truth. The truth is you are a powerful being. You are unconditionally loved. You are love itself, and you are completely and totally free. But when you lose yourself in the idea of not being free, that hurts. That triggers fear. When you lose yourself in the idea of being shameful, unworthy of love, that sucks because it's not true.

So whenever we have that negative, we can honestly look inside of ourselves and say, "Where do I have fear, and what negative self-perception has the world seemed to prove to me?" The illusion of the world, I might add, has it seemed to prove to me is real. It's just not really fundamentally real, but it's giving you the opportunity to be really in your face and really give you the chance to identify with potentially these perceptions and play with them.

What kind of powers do we have here? I get that we're infinite beings, we're all these things, but it doesn't feel practical. What are our tools here, and what are we stepping into? Because it does feel like we're stepping into something, we're moving into another level of us that has access to more of something. So what are our tools here right now, and what should we be working to cultivate?

Right, so on a practical level, we are constantly affecting reality, physical reality, all the time. We're nudging the probabilities all the time. I know most people believe in an objective material world. It only appears to be an objective material world. It's actually probabilistic in nature. Our intention does affect outcome all the time. So that's just one thing. It's not predetermined. It's a probabilistic reality where intention is constantly nudging all the time.

So I'm just pointing out that mechanism, but what's the power behind that mechanism, and that is intent. Our true power is our intent. What are we really intending in this moment? How are we really using this moment? You could say the most direct way to comment on that question is, "What is your relationship to this moment?

Are you making it an enemy, or are you in love with it? Is it in love with you? If it's not in love with you, and you're not in love with it, that's okay. Find out where you bought into something that made it an enemy. Oh, because I went through years and years of trauma, and I was, you know, whatever the story is that immediately rises up in anger because the ego is pissed. It raises its righteous fist and says, "I have good reason to call this universe cruel and me a victim."

Are you willing to let go of that actually and find how you actually do have the power to even feel that negative fear, whatever it was you locked away, whatever it was that all those years of abuse or whatever it was seemed to prove to you? Are you willing to actually go feel that and honor yourself, love yourself enough to actually meet your own experience all the way?

Now, that may sound indirect to your question, but it's not indirect because the quality of our experience directly is reflective of the quality of what we've done within ourselves as spirit. When you go into these dark aspects of yourself, something you fear or something that you're jealous of or something that you're angry about, you have to go through the pain. It's like, on a micro level, that's what's happening here on Earth, but on a macro level, you go, "I'm going to go into this incarnation to learn this thing to elevate to a higher level out here," and it's just sort of bigger and smaller versions of it, but they're all the self.

There's an important point here that I think is often missed. Sometimes when we hear a conversation like this, we think, "Oh, there's something I need to do, and the thing I need to do is to go face my fears and do these things." Okay, that's true, but there's something deeper than the doing, and that is your actual willingness to feel or to be or to do whatever.

I'm pointing that up because you mentioned avoiding pain. Willingness to feel the pain, this willingness I'm talking about means for the pain that you've buried away your whole life. This is not about avoiding that anymore. If you really want to open up all the gates, it's about actually being willing to go feel the pain. Willingness means you no longer make an enemy.

You say, "You know what, I feel powerless to this, but I'm going to feel it anyway. I'm going to go see. I'm going to go into the dark closet and see, is this thing really going to destroy me or not?" And that requires feeling. It's a very personal and genuine and real process. It's not about, as humans on the surface, we're all about activity. "Do this activity, get this result. Tell me what activity I can do so I can get away from this pain that I have."

This is more than activity. It's who you are. It's the actual quality of choice that you make, and the universe is watching that. It's not watching necessarily the activity. It's watching your willingness to admit your issues, to all in yourself, to own your pain, to feel your pain, to actually help the person next to you, to actually be willing to choose joy even though that might mean that you have to be vulnerable to be full of joy right now, to be a little kid and run around and play in the sun. You know what I mean? Like, that's a quality of being choice. It's not primarily about an action.

Where are we going? Are humans not going to be humans as we know it, or something completely different? Yeah, where are we going? I'm understanding your question to me where are we going as a physical species, but I want to comment in the context though that we're not human. I know that sounds totally crazy, but we're not human. You're the you that feels like you to you. That's who you are, and you just think that "you" means human really deeply, but that's not what you are.

So where are we going? We are the players. We are the souls. We're going even beyond the limitation of the human condition. We're going into experiences I can't possibly even imagine yet name, but as a physical species, the physical species will end up over time reflecting more and more that limitless nature of spirit. It just might take what we would consider a long time, which is not a big deal to spirit. Linear time is of creation anyway. It's not a big deal.

Do you remember other lives that you had, non-human or?

I have some, yeah. I have some snippets of experiences that you remember. Well, I know I've had hundreds of other incarnative experiences, but I only remember snippets from a few. I remember a couple that are non-human, and I remember one as a human woman. So if I get curious and try to investigate, I usually get this gentle nudge like, "No, you don't need to go see that right now," and I'm fine with that. I'm like, "Okay, no problem." I'm Christian right now, so I know that I've had other experiences. And when I say I've had other experiences, that's really important. It's not because sometimes I think when we think of reincarnation, we think, "Oh, those are other people, and I'm them." No, it's you. It's the same.

If you go do something on Monday night and then you go to something on Tuesday night, like you go to dinner one night, go to a movie the next night, go to a race car track the next night, whatever it is, still you going to each of those experiences. There's not really a different person. You might be a slightly different person on Tuesday night than you were on Monday night, and you might be a slightly different person on Wednesday night than Tuesday night. That's how it is as a soul. We have one experience, and then we have another experience, but it's the same you. So you're never not going to be you.

Processing trauma and going into these dark spaces that we're afraid to go and becoming a different person or being afraid almost that you'll become a different person, it's like you'll never lose your essence ever. Absolutely. Your home frequency that people feel won't ever change. It's really just about you changing how you feel in that frequency. That's the crazy thing about growth and becoming more of an observer and not getting so wrapped up in things and getting so pulled and torn and victim and that and division. It's like you actually, your reality sometimes changes.

There's definitely no bones about it. Sometimes some things in your reality change, but for the most part, you just feel better in it. So what feels not good is when you've associated with things that you're not. That's what feels not good—fakeness, negative self-perceptions that aren't you. The real you is full of joy. You're a joyful being. You are you just it. And I like, you know, you might say, "No, no, no, I have this long story, like I said, all this history that proves to me that that's not true." That's okay. You've had that experience. Now, now what? You're still you. You're still the joyful you underneath all those layers always.

It's really a message of hope. I mean, we come so far deep into this human experience, we really get lost in the story, and it's an opportunity. It's a gift, and we've become so lost now that we kind of made it into a little bit of a nightmare sometimes, you know what I mean? But now that we're here, we still haven't. We never lose who we really are. The question is what do we do now in this moment with remembering even just a little bit?

When I say remember who you are, I don't mean you need to have a big, grand experience. I'm talking like when you look at the sunset and you feel the joy in your body or you feel like, "Oh my gosh, life is good," and notice how that is not just a feeling or an idea. It's your very stuff, your very nature, your being, your consciousness itself actually is that reflecting back to you in the form of a sunset. That's all. It's beautiful.

Speaking of reflecting back, soul families, there's soul mates, there's twin flames, and how we are this. We're on Earth, but there is also other fractions of us, and that we may be split off, and you know, there's a twin flame somewhere out there, and it might not even be a human, right? But there's another essence, or there's many. I've also heard there's many. So I don't know if on the other side you were able to see whether or not there are sort of really close home frequencies and also maybe your own home frequency within incarnations.

Oh, well, we do have our own home frequency. We are who we are beautifully, wonderfully. The idea of twin flame has several different meanings. Some people talk about it as being a romantic soul mate that's most optimal for you. Some people reference it as another incarnation of the same soul, you know, another portion of you. I don't know much about how often that happens. I do know that the soul incarnates and does multiple things at the same time, so it's definitely not off the table. In fact, I think it does happen that the soul has multiple, it can play multiple personalities at once even within the same time period.

I have no idea how common that is, but that whole vibration that you are is always you, and then that vibration is more or less resonant with others. In higher systems, there's like a vibrational geography going on. Here on Earth, I mentioned this before, but this is the place where you can put two people in a room, and now they got to be stuck together. They might be discordant and yet they're in a room together. Typically, in higher systems, you go where you vibrate.

You go where you resonate with. You are what you are, and you fit over here, and you prefer over here. I'm being general in that, but that still then happens on Earth just in a slower way. So we tend to attract others that we resonate with on some level, whether it be a fear that we're trying to manifest or a deeper soul quality or something else.

Yeah, cool. Well, that's good. It's good to know we got some family out there that we're awesome certain frequency that is closer to whatever we are, and look, if that shifts and evolves over time into different frequencies and groups, then so be it. That's what we're here to do, right?

Yeah, we are all family actually. There's no such thing as a stranger. Strangers only happen when we have the illusion of separation, and then we don't remember, and we don't feel connected, so we think external people that we have no history with are strangers. That's what we call strangers, but truly, we're all connected. We're all brothers and sisters, every one of us, not just humans but animals, extraterrestrials. It's the same. There's not a big difference between, I know that sounds super crazy because now we're talking about ETS, but the soul has many different opportunities to incarnate, not just human, not just Earth.

Earth is precious. It's very unique. I was able to feel and know the incredible unique preciousness of Earth, but it's not the only show in town. It's not the only class you can go to. It's not the only place. There are other systems with incredibly different vibrations, not just in our entire universe, but there are entire other universes available. I mean, this is a huge context.

So yes, they're all so multiverse. Yes, a multiverse. So we are brothers and sisters with the other beings that might not be physical either. Like I said, you're not a human. We're not human. We're us. We're you, and you're you, and I'm me. That's what we are. We're just playing human.

Do you think that we'll have true real contact and knowledge and confirmation of extraterrestrials on Earth?

Yeah, I think it's inevitable.

Have you ever met that? Did you?

No, I have no direct experience with what we would call an ET. I do have one memory of what I suspect was probably an intelligent civilization that was not human. I think I have at least one experience in that, but other than that, I've had no direct experiences myself with what we would call ETS. I have interacted at times with other beings, other people's guides or their deeper selves, but I'm going to draw a big distinction.

Like I said, it's not really the form, and it's hard to speak to so much of it, but I think you do such an incredible job of being able to articulate, and truly, all you need is really one of these kinds of mystical experiences to be able to hear what you're saying and because you do actually put words to it that resonate. That's why your story is so important and why so many people have paid attention to it is because you're able to put words to it. So I know it's a struggle, but we all appreciate you doing it.

Thank you. Just one small comment that it's not that you need to have an experience. I heard you say there that it might trigger an experience. Experiences may happen. I mean, out-of-body experiences are more real than this. They're very real and lucid, but you don't need to have that kind of experience. Who you really are, like, basically follow your intuition. Feel inside yourself. Who are you, and what does your deeper self say is the path toward that? Maybe it's letting go of something.

Maybe it's a habit. Maybe it's some self-belief that you need to investigate or some self-worth that you can lift up or whatever. Everybody is unique, so I'm just lifting that up because it doesn't need to be some grand experience. We are spirit having a human experience.

That's just what we are. So the question then is, as spirit, because you are spirit right now, as spirit who is in the middle of the play, how do you intuit, how do you feel is the best way to nurture that and to find that here while you're on Earth? You're allowed to do it. There's actually no reason you can't wake up to all that you are here. There's no hard rule against it. Really, yeah, the veil works. It's super effective, but the thing is, this is a stage that we get to use how we choose.

It's completely up to us, and if we would like to wake up and go, "Oh my gosh, I'm on a stage. Why is everybody so serious?" We're allowed to do that if we want, or we can lose ourselves in the drama and play some drama for a while. That's fine. That might be a fun little fraction of your experience. They go, "That lifetime was crazy."

Well, I mean, I yes, but I also, in some of my experience, one in particular experience on psilocybin, I knew I wasn't human, and I asked when I came back, and I realized because there is so much information in that space. It was like question, answer, question, answer, but simultaneous, almost like telepathy-level speed right where you just, and I go, "I can't." I said, "How am I going to bring this information back to the humans?" And the information and the energy was like, "You don't need to. Just you're fine. Don't worry about it."

And then when I wanted to be human, I realized that I had to choose them. I had to choose the mind as the first baseline construct to build this reality, and in the process, I went, "Oh my God, this is why we forget," because in the first space where I knew I wasn't human, I couldn't have been because I was so fully embodied not human that I don't know how I could have been. So I asked the same thing you did. I said, "Can I remember a little? Can I like remember just a little so that I can bring something back?" And so, you know, I guess for whatever it is that I am giving to people as information is like the little I remember.

That's beautiful. I love it so much. It makes me so excited. It's like trying to download the entire internet through a landline connection or something. That's gonna happen, and then someone's like, "Here," and they hand you a straw, and they're like, "Okay, now tell us about the ocean." It's like, "Oh, that can't. That's not happening." But the thing is, you are the ocean like right now. You're back. You're back like here you are right. You've collapsed back down.

You're folded back down into the limited human mind. You're doing an awesome thing, an awesome job. You're sharing this information. You're being live. You're sharing love. It's beautiful, and now you're here, but the video is still the big you. It never went anywhere. Never shifted. So like that is kind of like widening the straw in a sense, allowing that to flow through and remind others of their oceans.

It's like an aperture. Right? Like, you're not ever not the whole thing. That's right, but you just narrow, narrow, narrow, narrow into this very small spectrum, and you go, "This is my aperture." It doesn't mean this isn't there and happening. It's just this is where I'm looking right now. And my experience is that the more spiritual, the more sort of higher vibrational frequency, well, whatever, I don't even know exactly the right words to put to it, is that you just kind of increase the aperture a little bit.

Yeah, that's really cool. I love it. It's a great analogy. I just want to comment. So part of increasing the aperture, I think when people talk about that, they think, "Oh, increasing aperture means leaving the physical, leaving all I am as a human." Well, actually, if you, through meditation, if you totally investigate your awareness, what you really are underneath thinking, you create some space through which you see the thoughts for what they are, and then you can actually, with full alertness, be human. Like, actually, "Oh wow, I actually have these thoughts.

Oh wow, I actually have this discomfort in my body. Oh wow, I'm actually afraid because I feel old," or whatever it is, whatever the thing is that you're dealing with, processing that widens the aperture. It's not like you're trying to leave all the physical stink. So I'm gonna try to leave. Well, you know, you're never really all the way here anyway, but once you fully integrate what's here, the aperture can't help but widen because now you're no longer limited.

There's a metaphor too for this. When my father was a little kid, I mentioned this in the book. He was afraid of a closet in his room when he was going to sleep every night as a child, and every night he would lay there in bed and be terrified of what was in the closet. One night, he's like, "Screw this. I am sick of being afraid of this closet." So he charged into the closet, pushed his way through the clothes, and sat down on the floor, fully expecting to be eaten by the monsters in the closet.

He was not eaten by the monsters in the closet, and to this day, my father is not afraid of closets. Now, I know that sounds silly, but our fears are not that dissimilar. We may have difference in scope. We may have had years of abuse or years of pain, whatever, but when you really go into it, when you really go into that dark cloud and say, "All right, I'm ready to get eaten by this monster," there is no monster, and then that aperture expands. It opens because now you've actually gone, processed without even trying, by going and looking and seeing there is nothing to be afraid of. That opens the aperture automatically. It's beautiful.

I love that. I love that metaphor. Yeah, that's awesome. Wow. Well, okay, thank you so much. I've taken enough of your time, and I just love the way that you're able to articulate things, and thank you for sharing your story. I'm excited for you, and congratulations on the book.

There's so much work, and especially on such a generous book that you have made available if someone really wants to read it, but for most people, I hope they go to Amazon and get it or go buy it on audio because you deserve a little credit for your experience of sharing it and helping. Thank you so much for the opportunity, and thank you for the work you're doing.

I think it's fantastic. It's excellent. People who are more known in the mainstream can say, "You know what, this actually is happening because it is real. It's not just woo-woo stuff." So thank you very much for your service and making it available to people and the way that you serve. Thanks for bringing that straw back down and being a straw, being a you know.

Well, obviously, I signed up for something to do with this stuff, so I have always actually felt like my career was what it was, but that it was actually just a way to build a platform for this because this feels more important in a way. Yeah, so thank you.

Well, thank you so much. Have a wonderful day. Thanks, everybody, for listening to the Pretty Intense Podcast today. I hope you enjoyed it. If you like what you heard today and you want to hear more, please click on the subscribe button.